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	<title>Comments on: Ruminations of an Apologist</title>
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	<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/</link>
	<description>a blog from the family bar</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-516</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-516</guid>
		<description>Familoo, I appreciate debate around Family Law tends to be circular and when stripped down to basics most (Apologists?) Family law professionals find it difficlut if not impossible to plausably defend.

I think the insights of the Judge Nick was talking with and the sentiment of the extract are remarkably similar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Familoo, I appreciate debate around Family Law tends to be circular and when stripped down to basics most (Apologists?) Family law professionals find it difficlut if not impossible to plausably defend.</p>
<p>I think the insights of the Judge Nick was talking with and the sentiment of the extract are remarkably similar.</p>
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		<title>By: familoo</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-515</link>
		<dc:creator>familoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-515</guid>
		<description>Ah Jonathan, we have danced this particular dance before...in the interests of conflict resolution I think I&#039;ll allow this thread to peter out. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah Jonathan, we have danced this particular dance before&#8230;in the interests of conflict resolution I think I&#8217;ll allow this thread to peter out. <img src='http://pinktape.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-514</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-514</guid>
		<description>Not sure exacly what I want regards Lawyers? but there has to be a better way that setting people up for exploitation and putting them through a process that leaves many emotianally dammaged whilst the legal professional keeps the moral high ground and bangs on about noble ideas and when challenged effectlvely says I have to do it because the Law Society Told me, you can complain if you don&#039;t like it.

As I thing we have blogged before I appreciate everyone needs to earn a living but I don&#039;t have to like the obvious duplicity and self protection that is needed to drive the current system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure exacly what I want regards Lawyers? but there has to be a better way that setting people up for exploitation and putting them through a process that leaves many emotianally dammaged whilst the legal professional keeps the moral high ground and bangs on about noble ideas and when challenged effectlvely says I have to do it because the Law Society Told me, you can complain if you don&#8217;t like it.</p>
<p>As I thing we have blogged before I appreciate everyone needs to earn a living but I don&#8217;t have to like the obvious duplicity and self protection that is needed to drive the current system.</p>
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		<title>By: familoo</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-513</link>
		<dc:creator>familoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-513</guid>
		<description>Yeah I understand the point of the extract, but I don&#039;t entirely agree, hence my response. Granted it would be better if litigants didn&#039;t have to complain about solicitors (I made that response more for the benefit of other readers than you specifically) and collaborative law is not a perfect system (but then I would say that since it&#039;s taking work away from the bar right?) but it&#039;s an attempt at a genuine response to the types of criticism you raise isn&#039;t it? One might form the impression you wanted to abolish lawyers, but I am afraid that even if you reduce the numbers and find other creative ways of resolving disputes there will remain cases which cannot be resolved by agreement and will have to fall back on law and lawyers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah I understand the point of the extract, but I don&#8217;t entirely agree, hence my response. Granted it would be better if litigants didn&#8217;t have to complain about solicitors (I made that response more for the benefit of other readers than you specifically) and collaborative law is not a perfect system (but then I would say that since it&#8217;s taking work away from the bar right?) but it&#8217;s an attempt at a genuine response to the types of criticism you raise isn&#8217;t it? One might form the impression you wanted to abolish lawyers, but I am afraid that even if you reduce the numbers and find other creative ways of resolving disputes there will remain cases which cannot be resolved by agreement and will have to fall back on law and lawyers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-512</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-512</guid>
		<description>Familoo
I am a bit dissapointed that you fell back on the you can always complain routine so readily.

The point of the extract was to try to succinclty explain that either by accident or design the current system of Family law is an exploitative mechanism which effectively funnels vulnerable people into an adversarial system which primarily serves the legal profession.
The legal professionals do not even need to be consciously aware and by dutifully adhereing to the rituals/codes of practice etc it works a treat.

Collaborative Law still requires two Solicitors working in a similar premise, ands smacks of reinvention rather than anything new.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Familoo<br />
I am a bit dissapointed that you fell back on the you can always complain routine so readily.</p>
<p>The point of the extract was to try to succinclty explain that either by accident or design the current system of Family law is an exploitative mechanism which effectively funnels vulnerable people into an adversarial system which primarily serves the legal profession.<br />
The legal professionals do not even need to be consciously aware and by dutifully adhereing to the rituals/codes of practice etc it works a treat.</p>
<p>Collaborative Law still requires two Solicitors working in a similar premise, ands smacks of reinvention rather than anything new.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Langford</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-511</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Langford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-511</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think I actually said all lawyers were greedy, and I was quoting what someone else had said.  His implication, I think, condensed into a deliberately controversial sound-bite, was more that lawyers will act to protect their livelihoods rather than support any reform which might put a large number of them out of work.  If we are honest, many of us would do the same.

I also agree with Familoo about objectivity.  I&#039;m not sure how easy it is for any of us to be entirely objective, or to be able to understand the point of view of another group within the system.  A lawyer cannot begin to understand what it is to lose a child, and those who have experienced that are often affected far more severely than merely losing their objectivity.

Indeed, one of the obstacles to the equal parenting campaign is the extent to which many would-be campaigners are damaged.  It is one of the reasons the F4J campaign was shut down.  It is certainly not possible to campaign effectively while your case is ongoing.

Family solicitors and barristers come across as very defensive of their profession - which may be partially a result of the campaign against them.  Judges - perhaps because their employment is more secure - are often more ready to discuss the failures of the system, and to acknowledge that there are failures.

In his recent address, for example, Mr Justice McFarlane recognises that the introduction of parental responsibility in the CA 1989 has not had the effect intended.  He also points out that &#039;private law disputes... are not, in reality, legal issues&#039;.  These are not the sort of things one finds barristers saying, and they are very refreshing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think I actually said all lawyers were greedy, and I was quoting what someone else had said.  His implication, I think, condensed into a deliberately controversial sound-bite, was more that lawyers will act to protect their livelihoods rather than support any reform which might put a large number of them out of work.  If we are honest, many of us would do the same.</p>
<p>I also agree with Familoo about objectivity.  I&#8217;m not sure how easy it is for any of us to be entirely objective, or to be able to understand the point of view of another group within the system.  A lawyer cannot begin to understand what it is to lose a child, and those who have experienced that are often affected far more severely than merely losing their objectivity.</p>
<p>Indeed, one of the obstacles to the equal parenting campaign is the extent to which many would-be campaigners are damaged.  It is one of the reasons the F4J campaign was shut down.  It is certainly not possible to campaign effectively while your case is ongoing.</p>
<p>Family solicitors and barristers come across as very defensive of their profession &#8211; which may be partially a result of the campaign against them.  Judges &#8211; perhaps because their employment is more secure &#8211; are often more ready to discuss the failures of the system, and to acknowledge that there are failures.</p>
<p>In his recent address, for example, Mr Justice McFarlane recognises that the introduction of parental responsibility in the CA 1989 has not had the effect intended.  He also points out that &#8216;private law disputes&#8230; are not, in reality, legal issues&#8217;.  These are not the sort of things one finds barristers saying, and they are very refreshing.</p>
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		<title>By: Insitelaw magazine</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-510</link>
		<dc:creator>Insitelaw magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-510</guid>
		<description>[...] Pink Tape: Ruminations of an apologist I often feel as if I may come across on this blog as some kind of apologist for the family justice system. Those who know me would chortle at the notion of me as propagandist for The Man, but I am conscious that I often find myself defending the system against a partial or inaccurate attack from the disgruntled, the militant or those with an axe to grind.. More&#8230;  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pink Tape: Ruminations of an apologist I often feel as if I may come across on this blog as some kind of apologist for the family justice system. Those who know me would chortle at the notion of me as propagandist for The Man, but I am conscious that I often find myself defending the system against a partial or inaccurate attack from the disgruntled, the militant or those with an axe to grind.. More&#8230;  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: familoo</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-509</link>
		<dc:creator>familoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-509</guid>
		<description>In many respects the criticisms you make can be met by a look at the emerging collaborative law practice (see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.collaborativefamilylawyers.co.uk/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.collaborativefamilylawyers.co.uk/&lt;/a&gt; ). And insofar as the more traditional methods of instructing a solicitor goes Resolution has a fairly rigorous &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.resolution.org.uk/editorial.asp?page_id=26&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;code of practice &lt;/a&gt;for family solicitors which requires them to work cooperatively and to promote settlement. If anyone feels that their solicitor is not adhering to that protocol they should raise their concerns with the solicitor promptly, specifically referring to the Code, and if not satisfied with the response should complain in the first instance through the firms own complaints procedure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In many respects the criticisms you make can be met by a look at the emerging collaborative law practice (see <a href="http://www.collaborativefamilylawyers.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">http://www.collaborativefamilylawyers.co.uk/</a> ). And insofar as the more traditional methods of instructing a solicitor goes Resolution has a fairly rigorous <a href="http://www.resolution.org.uk/editorial.asp?page_id=26" rel="nofollow">code of practice </a>for family solicitors which requires them to work cooperatively and to promote settlement. If anyone feels that their solicitor is not adhering to that protocol they should raise their concerns with the solicitor promptly, specifically referring to the Code, and if not satisfied with the response should complain in the first instance through the firms own complaints procedure.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-508</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-508</guid>
		<description>I immediately felt uneasy when dealing with my Solicitor I intuitively felt as though I was being set up, I have been involved in managing caseloads and dealing with antagonistic issues for many years and from my experience knew she was going about things in a very inefficient way, when I questioned this I was told &quot;this is how we do things&quot; which did not exacly fill me with confidence.

The following is an extract from the Selfish Gene which In my opinion sums up Family Law very well.

Game theorists divide games into &quot;zero sum&quot; and &quot;nonzero sum&quot;.  A zero sum game is one in which a win for one player is a loss for the other.  Chess is zero sum, Because the aim of each player is to win, and this means to make the other player lose.  Prisoners Dilemma, however, is a nonzero sum game.  There is a banker payingout money, and it is possible for the two players to link arms and laugh all the way to the bank.
This talk of laughing all the way to the band reminds me of a delightful line from Shakespear:
&quot;The first thing we do, let&#039;s kill all the lawyers&quot;
In what are called civil &quot;disputes: there is often in fact great scope for cooperation.  What looks like a zero sum confrontation can, with a little goodwill, easily be transformed into a mutually benefitcial nonzero sume game.  Consider divorce.  A good marriage is obviously a nonzero sume game, brimming with mutual cooperation.  But even when it breaks down there are all sorts of reasons whey a couple could benefit by continuing to cooperate, and treating their divorce,  too, as a nonzero sum.  As if child welfare were not a sufficient reason, the fees of two lawyers will make a nasty dent in the family finances.  So obviously a sensible and civilized couple begin by goping together to see one lawyer, don&#039;t they?
We.., actually no.  At least in England and, until recently, in all fifty states of the USA, the law, or more strictly-and significantly-the lawyers own professional code, doesn&#039;t allow them to.  Lawyers must accept only one member of a couple as a client.  The other person is turned from the door, and either has no legal advice at all or is forced to go to another lawer.  And that is where the fun begins.  In separate chambers but with one voice, the two lawyers immediately start referring to &quot;us&quot; and &quot;them&quot;.  &quot;Us&quot;, you understand, doesn&#039;t mean me and my wife; it means me and my lawyer against her and her lawyer.
When the case comes to court, it is actually listed as &quot;Smith versus Smith&quot;!  It is assumed to be adversarial , whether the couple feel adversarial or not, whether or not they have specifically agreed that they want to be sensibly amicable.  And who benefits from treating it as an &quot;I win, you lose&quot; tussle?  The chances are, only the lawyers.
The hapless couple have been dragged into a zero sum game.  For the lawyers, however, the case of Smith v Smith is a nice fat nonzero sum game, with the Smiths providing the payoffs and the two professional milking their clients joint account in elaborately coded cooperation.  One way in which they cooperate is to make proposals that they both know the other side will not accept.  This prompts a counter proposal that, again, boh know is unacceptable.  And so it goes on.  Every letter, every phone call exchanged between the cooperating &quot;adversaries&quot; adds another wad to the bill.  With luck, this procedure can be dragged out for months or even years, with costs mounting in parrallel.  The lawyers don&#039;t get together to work all this out.  On the contrary, it is ironically their scrupulous separateness that is the chief instrument of their cooperation at the expense of the clients.  The lawyers may noteven be aware of what they are doing.
Like the vampire bats that we shall meet in a moment, they are playing to well-ritualized rules.  The system workes without any conscious overseeing or organising.  It is all geared to forcing us into zero sum games.  Zero sum for the clients, but very much nonzero sum for the lawyers.
What is to be done?  The Shakespeare option is messy.  It would be cleaner to get the law changed.  But most parliamentarians are drawn from the legal profession, and have a zero sum mentality.  It is hard to imagine a more adversarial atmosphere that the British House of Commons. The law courts at least preserve the decencies of debate.  As well they might, since &quot;my learned friend and I&#039; are cooperating very nicely all the way to the bank.
It is fair to add that a few lawyers play exacly the opposite role, persuading clients who are itching for a zero sum fight that they would do better to reach a nonzero sum settlement out of court.

By accident or design the current system of Family law effectively sets up two vulnerable individuals in a protracted and largely unnecessary fight with plenty of stock phrases and noble ideas to support it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I immediately felt uneasy when dealing with my Solicitor I intuitively felt as though I was being set up, I have been involved in managing caseloads and dealing with antagonistic issues for many years and from my experience knew she was going about things in a very inefficient way, when I questioned this I was told &#8220;this is how we do things&#8221; which did not exacly fill me with confidence.</p>
<p>The following is an extract from the Selfish Gene which In my opinion sums up Family Law very well.</p>
<p>Game theorists divide games into &#8220;zero sum&#8221; and &#8220;nonzero sum&#8221;.  A zero sum game is one in which a win for one player is a loss for the other.  Chess is zero sum, Because the aim of each player is to win, and this means to make the other player lose.  Prisoners Dilemma, however, is a nonzero sum game.  There is a banker payingout money, and it is possible for the two players to link arms and laugh all the way to the bank.<br />
This talk of laughing all the way to the band reminds me of a delightful line from Shakespear:<br />
&#8220;The first thing we do, let&#8217;s kill all the lawyers&#8221;<br />
In what are called civil &#8220;disputes: there is often in fact great scope for cooperation.  What looks like a zero sum confrontation can, with a little goodwill, easily be transformed into a mutually benefitcial nonzero sume game.  Consider divorce.  A good marriage is obviously a nonzero sume game, brimming with mutual cooperation.  But even when it breaks down there are all sorts of reasons whey a couple could benefit by continuing to cooperate, and treating their divorce,  too, as a nonzero sum.  As if child welfare were not a sufficient reason, the fees of two lawyers will make a nasty dent in the family finances.  So obviously a sensible and civilized couple begin by goping together to see one lawyer, don&#8217;t they?<br />
We.., actually no.  At least in England and, until recently, in all fifty states of the USA, the law, or more strictly-and significantly-the lawyers own professional code, doesn&#8217;t allow them to.  Lawyers must accept only one member of a couple as a client.  The other person is turned from the door, and either has no legal advice at all or is forced to go to another lawer.  And that is where the fun begins.  In separate chambers but with one voice, the two lawyers immediately start referring to &#8220;us&#8221; and &#8220;them&#8221;.  &#8220;Us&#8221;, you understand, doesn&#8217;t mean me and my wife; it means me and my lawyer against her and her lawyer.<br />
When the case comes to court, it is actually listed as &#8220;Smith versus Smith&#8221;!  It is assumed to be adversarial , whether the couple feel adversarial or not, whether or not they have specifically agreed that they want to be sensibly amicable.  And who benefits from treating it as an &#8220;I win, you lose&#8221; tussle?  The chances are, only the lawyers.<br />
The hapless couple have been dragged into a zero sum game.  For the lawyers, however, the case of Smith v Smith is a nice fat nonzero sum game, with the Smiths providing the payoffs and the two professional milking their clients joint account in elaborately coded cooperation.  One way in which they cooperate is to make proposals that they both know the other side will not accept.  This prompts a counter proposal that, again, boh know is unacceptable.  And so it goes on.  Every letter, every phone call exchanged between the cooperating &#8220;adversaries&#8221; adds another wad to the bill.  With luck, this procedure can be dragged out for months or even years, with costs mounting in parrallel.  The lawyers don&#8217;t get together to work all this out.  On the contrary, it is ironically their scrupulous separateness that is the chief instrument of their cooperation at the expense of the clients.  The lawyers may noteven be aware of what they are doing.<br />
Like the vampire bats that we shall meet in a moment, they are playing to well-ritualized rules.  The system workes without any conscious overseeing or organising.  It is all geared to forcing us into zero sum games.  Zero sum for the clients, but very much nonzero sum for the lawyers.<br />
What is to be done?  The Shakespeare option is messy.  It would be cleaner to get the law changed.  But most parliamentarians are drawn from the legal profession, and have a zero sum mentality.  It is hard to imagine a more adversarial atmosphere that the British House of Commons. The law courts at least preserve the decencies of debate.  As well they might, since &#8220;my learned friend and I&#8217; are cooperating very nicely all the way to the bank.<br />
It is fair to add that a few lawyers play exacly the opposite role, persuading clients who are itching for a zero sum fight that they would do better to reach a nonzero sum settlement out of court.</p>
<p>By accident or design the current system of Family law effectively sets up two vulnerable individuals in a protracted and largely unnecessary fight with plenty of stock phrases and noble ideas to support it.</p>
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		<title>By: familoo</title>
		<link>http://pinktape.co.uk/2009/03/ruminations-of-an-apologist/#comment-507</link>
		<dc:creator>familoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pinktape.co.uk/?p=492#comment-507</guid>
		<description>&#039;anyone who has been through the Family law process is incapable of objectively analysing it&#039; - I would not put it so strongly. It is inevitably hard to be objective when your children are at stake and you fele wronged.

Of course I can&#039;t completely rebut your suggestion that the financial reward of the job prevents us lawyers from being completely objective: even the most noble of us want to remain in a job. However, it is fair to say that in many respects there is no incentive for us in stringing out a case that ought to be capable of compromise, particularly in publicly funded work where we are positively incentivised to settle or resolve speedily, and where even without settlement supplements we can often get paid just as much for a very short time spent at court sorting out a consent order as we would if we messed about contesting it. From a selfish rather than client led point of view I think you would find that most advocates would rather settle that which is capable of settling either to avoid a bad loss at the subsequent contested hearing or to free up the diary for something else which may be better paid or more legally interesting. But notwithstanding all of that I understand why some would view my opinions with caution. For my part I try to absorb a wide range of information and views, not just those who are saying the same as me (that would be dull and pointless). I would hope that others would do the same. I don&#039;t see the voices &#039;out there&#039; as us and them (disgruntled parents versus lawyers). We all have something to offer. Hopelessly relativist I know, but that&#039;s my perspective.

I don&#039;t think there is any shame in standing by instructions as you suggest. It is the client who at the end of the day determines the course which is taken, whether in wisdom or folly. If we did anything other we would surely be subject to criticism - the whole purpose of our instruction is to ensure that the party&#039;s position is capably set out no matter how foolish or weak or cantankerous it may seem. Many a wrong decision would have been left unchallenged or a miscarriage left unrighted if it were not so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;anyone who has been through the Family law process is incapable of objectively analysing it&#8217; &#8211; I would not put it so strongly. It is inevitably hard to be objective when your children are at stake and you fele wronged.</p>
<p>Of course I can&#8217;t completely rebut your suggestion that the financial reward of the job prevents us lawyers from being completely objective: even the most noble of us want to remain in a job. However, it is fair to say that in many respects there is no incentive for us in stringing out a case that ought to be capable of compromise, particularly in publicly funded work where we are positively incentivised to settle or resolve speedily, and where even without settlement supplements we can often get paid just as much for a very short time spent at court sorting out a consent order as we would if we messed about contesting it. From a selfish rather than client led point of view I think you would find that most advocates would rather settle that which is capable of settling either to avoid a bad loss at the subsequent contested hearing or to free up the diary for something else which may be better paid or more legally interesting. But notwithstanding all of that I understand why some would view my opinions with caution. For my part I try to absorb a wide range of information and views, not just those who are saying the same as me (that would be dull and pointless). I would hope that others would do the same. I don&#8217;t see the voices &#8216;out there&#8217; as us and them (disgruntled parents versus lawyers). We all have something to offer. Hopelessly relativist I know, but that&#8217;s my perspective.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there is any shame in standing by instructions as you suggest. It is the client who at the end of the day determines the course which is taken, whether in wisdom or folly. If we did anything other we would surely be subject to criticism &#8211; the whole purpose of our instruction is to ensure that the party&#8217;s position is capably set out no matter how foolish or weak or cantankerous it may seem. Many a wrong decision would have been left unchallenged or a miscarriage left unrighted if it were not so.</p>
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